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	<title>Comments for Evergreen Blogs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.evergreench.org/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.evergreench.org</link>
	<description>Worship God, Love People, Restore Creation</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on How do we handle failure? by Beth</title>
		<link>http://blog.evergreench.org/2008/11/17/how-do-we-handle-failure/#comment-520</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evergreench.org/?p=98#comment-520</guid>
		<description>That entry got a red star next to it in my copy (and I don't write in books). Funny thing is that if someone else did it, I too would laugh and try to re-assure them it just doesn't matter. 

But if I did it - ooooooooooeeeew I would be mad at myself for making a mess that had to be cleaned up.

Hmmmmm.......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That entry got a red star next to it in my copy (and I don&#8217;t write in books). Funny thing is that if someone else did it, I too would laugh and try to re-assure them it just doesn&#8217;t matter. </p>
<p>But if I did it - ooooooooooeeeew I would be mad at myself for making a mess that had to be cleaned up.</p>
<p>Hmmmmm&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How do we handle failure? by Todd Baughman</title>
		<link>http://blog.evergreench.org/2008/11/17/how-do-we-handle-failure/#comment-515</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Baughman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evergreench.org/?p=98#comment-515</guid>
		<description>Kerry, my response would be to never look at it as "throwing in the towel" but maybe setting boundries and agreeing to disagree.  I think the strength of a true friendship is what happens when you both disagree.  If you can move on and continue the relationship, then you should never have to "throw in the towel".  Usually when someone in a relationship is ready to "throw in the towel" it says to me that the other person is not willing to forgive.  In that case it is not your problem but to pray for a change.  Do all you can in a relationship to bring restoration.  If what you do is rejected, pray, set boundries, but continue to love that other person until they change and hopefully they will.  It will always be hard to go through a mess in a relationship if the other person is not as willing as you are.
When Ed and I and our wives started Evergreen 7 years ago we said up front that we are more committed to our relationships than the church.  If the church failed, our relationships would hold true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kerry, my response would be to never look at it as &#8220;throwing in the towel&#8221; but maybe setting boundries and agreeing to disagree.  I think the strength of a true friendship is what happens when you both disagree.  If you can move on and continue the relationship, then you should never have to &#8220;throw in the towel&#8221;.  Usually when someone in a relationship is ready to &#8220;throw in the towel&#8221; it says to me that the other person is not willing to forgive.  In that case it is not your problem but to pray for a change.  Do all you can in a relationship to bring restoration.  If what you do is rejected, pray, set boundries, but continue to love that other person until they change and hopefully they will.  It will always be hard to go through a mess in a relationship if the other person is not as willing as you are.<br />
When Ed and I and our wives started Evergreen 7 years ago we said up front that we are more committed to our relationships than the church.  If the church failed, our relationships would hold true.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How do we handle failure? by Kerry</title>
		<link>http://blog.evergreench.org/2008/11/17/how-do-we-handle-failure/#comment-513</link>
		<dc:creator>Kerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evergreench.org/?p=98#comment-513</guid>
		<description>"The relationship was more important than the mess." 

I think that this is a great post, and the exerpt that you mentioned was one of my favorites in the book. My immediate reaction would be to laugh at this situation, should it happen to me. I love the grace that ensued during this scene. I loved the image of Jesus and the Sarayu cleaning God's feet. I found this to be absolutely beautiful. 

My question is this... what if the relationship is the mess? I have been in a mad battle to salvage a relationship for almost a year now and have decided to just give up. How do you know when it's time to throw in the towel?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The relationship was more important than the mess.&#8221; </p>
<p>I think that this is a great post, and the exerpt that you mentioned was one of my favorites in the book. My immediate reaction would be to laugh at this situation, should it happen to me. I love the grace that ensued during this scene. I loved the image of Jesus and the Sarayu cleaning God&#8217;s feet. I found this to be absolutely beautiful. </p>
<p>My question is this&#8230; what if the relationship is the mess? I have been in a mad battle to salvage a relationship for almost a year now and have decided to just give up. How do you know when it&#8217;s time to throw in the towel?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Forced Amateurs by Alicia</title>
		<link>http://blog.evergreench.org/2008/11/11/forced-amateurs/#comment-511</link>
		<dc:creator>Alicia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 02:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evergreench.org/?p=96#comment-511</guid>
		<description>Ok, I gave it a week.  Now some push back.  You were angry when you wrote.  This one has triggered me for a long time...so consider that as you read.

I get where you're coming from.  It's frustrating to be trying to help someone, especially when you have more experience, only to have them blithely ignore your suggestions.  It's annoying when you're dealing with regular life issues; it's maddening when the health or well being of their child is at stake.  I'll give you that.

But-

The responsibility goes both ways.  Young parents need to have the humility to ask for help.  We need to find ways to marry our desire for advice and input with our best intentions of providing a good upbringing for the adults we're raising.  But more experienced parents need to be willing to make themselves available to us as well.  We need encouragement.  We need someone, once in a while, to cheer us on and say, "Hang in there!  You're doing great!!  You're not alone."

Because, I've got to tell you...that is seriously lacking in our society and, yes, in our church.  I've ASKED for help.  I've gone to the parents or parent of older children I admire, and I've asked for help.  And, very consistently, the door has been closed in my face.  "I'm too busy" or "Wow, there must be something wrong with your child, my child NEVER did that" or "I'm not going to spend time on this, ask someone else" can be crushing.  I'm fortunate in that some of our closest friends at ECC have kids of all ages...so they are a wonderful resource for us.  But, before we were lucky enough to hook up with them, that door got slammed in my face several times.  And, honestly, I don't remember ever having one of the parents of the older kids in our community come along side me and say, "Hey, you're doing a good job."

I know, first hand, that sometimes it's hard to accept that it takes a village to raise a child.  But we've got to make sure that when young parents ask to be a part of the village, we include them and not make them feel like outsiders or screw ups when they DO ask for help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I gave it a week.  Now some push back.  You were angry when you wrote.  This one has triggered me for a long time&#8230;so consider that as you read.</p>
<p>I get where you&#8217;re coming from.  It&#8217;s frustrating to be trying to help someone, especially when you have more experience, only to have them blithely ignore your suggestions.  It&#8217;s annoying when you&#8217;re dealing with regular life issues; it&#8217;s maddening when the health or well being of their child is at stake.  I&#8217;ll give you that.</p>
<p>But-</p>
<p>The responsibility goes both ways.  Young parents need to have the humility to ask for help.  We need to find ways to marry our desire for advice and input with our best intentions of providing a good upbringing for the adults we&#8217;re raising.  But more experienced parents need to be willing to make themselves available to us as well.  We need encouragement.  We need someone, once in a while, to cheer us on and say, &#8220;Hang in there!  You&#8217;re doing great!!  You&#8217;re not alone.&#8221;</p>
<p>Because, I&#8217;ve got to tell you&#8230;that is seriously lacking in our society and, yes, in our church.  I&#8217;ve ASKED for help.  I&#8217;ve gone to the parents or parent of older children I admire, and I&#8217;ve asked for help.  And, very consistently, the door has been closed in my face.  &#8220;I&#8217;m too busy&#8221; or &#8220;Wow, there must be something wrong with your child, my child NEVER did that&#8221; or &#8220;I&#8217;m not going to spend time on this, ask someone else&#8221; can be crushing.  I&#8217;m fortunate in that some of our closest friends at ECC have kids of all ages&#8230;so they are a wonderful resource for us.  But, before we were lucky enough to hook up with them, that door got slammed in my face several times.  And, honestly, I don&#8217;t remember ever having one of the parents of the older kids in our community come along side me and say, &#8220;Hey, you&#8217;re doing a good job.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know, first hand, that sometimes it&#8217;s hard to accept that it takes a village to raise a child.  But we&#8217;ve got to make sure that when young parents ask to be a part of the village, we include them and not make them feel like outsiders or screw ups when they DO ask for help.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Relational brokenness by Annette</title>
		<link>http://blog.evergreench.org/2008/09/22/relational-brokenness/#comment-500</link>
		<dc:creator>Annette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evergreench.org/?p=85#comment-500</guid>
		<description>I was deeply touched by this blog and the responses.  Trust has been such a hard issue for me.  My life has been filled with so much disappointment with people either betraying my trust or simply judging me that it's so easy to crawl in a hole and not let anyone near me.  I choose not to be that way. I've come to a realization that there is a balance of good and bad relationships.  I have relationships where I am strengthened and encouraged.  Then I have relationships where I seriously question the sanity of the person and wonder if the person even realizes how they are?  God has shown me through some current situations that I don't know everyone's story behind their behaviors and and that I'm making judgments.  There's reasons to why I act the way I do.  Am I the only one who's gone through bad stuff?  No.  So, by getting closer to God, IHe has shwon me that there is a reason for every relationship whether the outcome is good or bad.  I just have to see God in the relationship and know that He is speaking to my life through them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was deeply touched by this blog and the responses.  Trust has been such a hard issue for me.  My life has been filled with so much disappointment with people either betraying my trust or simply judging me that it&#8217;s so easy to crawl in a hole and not let anyone near me.  I choose not to be that way. I&#8217;ve come to a realization that there is a balance of good and bad relationships.  I have relationships where I am strengthened and encouraged.  Then I have relationships where I seriously question the sanity of the person and wonder if the person even realizes how they are?  God has shown me through some current situations that I don&#8217;t know everyone&#8217;s story behind their behaviors and and that I&#8217;m making judgments.  There&#8217;s reasons to why I act the way I do.  Am I the only one who&#8217;s gone through bad stuff?  No.  So, by getting closer to God, IHe has shwon me that there is a reason for every relationship whether the outcome is good or bad.  I just have to see God in the relationship and know that He is speaking to my life through them.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Forced Amateurs by Annette (aka a very good mother)</title>
		<link>http://blog.evergreench.org/2008/11/11/forced-amateurs/#comment-498</link>
		<dc:creator>Annette (aka a very good mother)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evergreench.org/?p=96#comment-498</guid>
		<description>Okay, I'm understanding your point, but I think any mother may be hesitant to acknowledge our "amateur status" as you put it when it comes to raising our kids.  Let me explain.  My first son was born on September 13th, 1985.  I went into labor on September 12th.  I was taken to the hospital in pain and told I wasn't dialated enough, so I was taken back home to be in the most excrutiating pain for the whole night.  I was taken to the hospital again and told they could not take me STILL.  Finally, the next day around noon, my mother dropped me off at the hospital and told them, "You're keeping her.  I can't take it anymore".  I ended up having my son by c-section at 9:23 that evening.  That was some serious pain.  Anyway, once I looked into the eyes of my son, my whole world changed.  The pain was gone and I thanked God that He had given me such a gift.  I knew at that moment that I was responsible for raising him and nurturing him to become a responsible young man who fears and reverences the Lord.  

I wrote all that because I think many of caring mothers can be categorized as "overprotected" because of our labor and even in carrying the child for 9 months.  The only person who knows the child while in the womb is the mother.  We already have the bond before anyone else does  So instead of overprotection, I'd rather lable it "extremely caring".  I think it's just a mother's way of not wanting anything to happen to what was gifted to them by the Lord.  We don't see ourselves as overprotected, but doing what our instincts tell us. I believe in motherly instincts.  Some times we just don't know why we know our children are going through something difficult or is in danger, but a mother just knows.   It reminds me of our heavenly father.  He knows us too.  He definitely knows what's best for us.  I don't think we would've been given our children if we didn't know. 

Now, to answer Ed's blog, I do agree that others should be involved in the raising of kids.  The saying, "It takes a village to raise a child", has meaning.  Especially within the christian community.  But I think the issue is someone else knowing what's best.  I love my children and I know that I would never want anything bad to happen to them and I only want what's best. If I need help, I would ask for help.  And if a loving parent needs help, I hope they would not be selfish or too prideful not to seek help by others who care about their child.

See, I gave in a little.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I&#8217;m understanding your point, but I think any mother may be hesitant to acknowledge our &#8220;amateur status&#8221; as you put it when it comes to raising our kids.  Let me explain.  My first son was born on September 13th, 1985.  I went into labor on September 12th.  I was taken to the hospital in pain and told I wasn&#8217;t dialated enough, so I was taken back home to be in the most excrutiating pain for the whole night.  I was taken to the hospital again and told they could not take me STILL.  Finally, the next day around noon, my mother dropped me off at the hospital and told them, &#8220;You&#8217;re keeping her.  I can&#8217;t take it anymore&#8221;.  I ended up having my son by c-section at 9:23 that evening.  That was some serious pain.  Anyway, once I looked into the eyes of my son, my whole world changed.  The pain was gone and I thanked God that He had given me such a gift.  I knew at that moment that I was responsible for raising him and nurturing him to become a responsible young man who fears and reverences the Lord.  </p>
<p>I wrote all that because I think many of caring mothers can be categorized as &#8220;overprotected&#8221; because of our labor and even in carrying the child for 9 months.  The only person who knows the child while in the womb is the mother.  We already have the bond before anyone else does  So instead of overprotection, I&#8217;d rather lable it &#8220;extremely caring&#8221;.  I think it&#8217;s just a mother&#8217;s way of not wanting anything to happen to what was gifted to them by the Lord.  We don&#8217;t see ourselves as overprotected, but doing what our instincts tell us. I believe in motherly instincts.  Some times we just don&#8217;t know why we know our children are going through something difficult or is in danger, but a mother just knows.   It reminds me of our heavenly father.  He knows us too.  He definitely knows what&#8217;s best for us.  I don&#8217;t think we would&#8217;ve been given our children if we didn&#8217;t know. </p>
<p>Now, to answer Ed&#8217;s blog, I do agree that others should be involved in the raising of kids.  The saying, &#8220;It takes a village to raise a child&#8221;, has meaning.  Especially within the christian community.  But I think the issue is someone else knowing what&#8217;s best.  I love my children and I know that I would never want anything bad to happen to them and I only want what&#8217;s best. If I need help, I would ask for help.  And if a loving parent needs help, I hope they would not be selfish or too prideful not to seek help by others who care about their child.</p>
<p>See, I gave in a little.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Relational brokenness by Kerry</title>
		<link>http://blog.evergreench.org/2008/09/22/relational-brokenness/#comment-446</link>
		<dc:creator>Kerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evergreench.org/?p=85#comment-446</guid>
		<description>It's funny (not funny, haha) that this subject keeps coming up lately. 

I find that I become disappointed in people really easily... and from that the judgemental side of me comes to surface. After talking with friends and praying about this (a lot), it's been pointed out to me that I am trying to control these situations. We can't control every relationship, and I think that the broken ones are the ones that we want to hold onto the most because somewhere deep inside we really want to slap a bandaid on it and make it "better". 

It's become apparent that pushing these relationships away is so much easier than attempting to embrace them as they are, at face value. I also have to remind myself that God has given me grace, and I need to use this gift to push past the difficulties in these relationships. I also need to remind myself that I can't fix everything all of the time. It's hard for me to ask for help with this, even from God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s funny (not funny, haha) that this subject keeps coming up lately. </p>
<p>I find that I become disappointed in people really easily&#8230; and from that the judgemental side of me comes to surface. After talking with friends and praying about this (a lot), it&#8217;s been pointed out to me that I am trying to control these situations. We can&#8217;t control every relationship, and I think that the broken ones are the ones that we want to hold onto the most because somewhere deep inside we really want to slap a bandaid on it and make it &#8220;better&#8221;. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s become apparent that pushing these relationships away is so much easier than attempting to embrace them as they are, at face value. I also have to remind myself that God has given me grace, and I need to use this gift to push past the difficulties in these relationships. I also need to remind myself that I can&#8217;t fix everything all of the time. It&#8217;s hard for me to ask for help with this, even from God.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Relational brokenness by Alicia</title>
		<link>http://blog.evergreench.org/2008/09/22/relational-brokenness/#comment-443</link>
		<dc:creator>Alicia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evergreench.org/?p=85#comment-443</guid>
		<description>For me, it's been an act of will.  While I try really hard to learn from my past, I absolutely refuse to be defined by it.  And, I absolutely refuse to be an accomplice to allowing it to control me.  That doesn't mean my past doesn't do a decent job of impacting me, but it does mean that I'm committed to rooting out where that impact is negative and doing everything I can to minimize that imact.

A change occured in my life when I read this quote on a church sign.
"He who angers you, controls you."  I've expanded that idea in my mind to include statements like, "He who scares you, controls you."  I've given away too much time in my life to being angry or scared by other people.  I don't want to be controlled by others any more.

In real life, that means making an intellectual decision to learn to trust others, even when my emotions SCREAM at me to do otherwise.  It means making the intellectual decision to model my behavior and thought patterns after those who are more healthy than I am in this respect, even when their health looks insane to me.  And, most importantly, it means falling on my knees before God regularly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me, it&#8217;s been an act of will.  While I try really hard to learn from my past, I absolutely refuse to be defined by it.  And, I absolutely refuse to be an accomplice to allowing it to control me.  That doesn&#8217;t mean my past doesn&#8217;t do a decent job of impacting me, but it does mean that I&#8217;m committed to rooting out where that impact is negative and doing everything I can to minimize that imact.</p>
<p>A change occured in my life when I read this quote on a church sign.<br />
&#8220;He who angers you, controls you.&#8221;  I&#8217;ve expanded that idea in my mind to include statements like, &#8220;He who scares you, controls you.&#8221;  I&#8217;ve given away too much time in my life to being angry or scared by other people.  I don&#8217;t want to be controlled by others any more.</p>
<p>In real life, that means making an intellectual decision to learn to trust others, even when my emotions SCREAM at me to do otherwise.  It means making the intellectual decision to model my behavior and thought patterns after those who are more healthy than I am in this respect, even when their health looks insane to me.  And, most importantly, it means falling on my knees before God regularly.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A New Story by lisa wentzel</title>
		<link>http://blog.evergreench.org/2008/08/19/a-new-story/#comment-441</link>
		<dc:creator>lisa wentzel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:16:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evergreench.org/2008/08/19/a-new-story/#comment-441</guid>
		<description>my non believing friends would say that grace and sacrifice are not a characteristic that they see in christians. i think if we collectively reflected this Jesus more, than we could start would be more effective at making disciples.
yea!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>my non believing friends would say that grace and sacrifice are not a characteristic that they see in christians. i think if we collectively reflected this Jesus more, than we could start would be more effective at making disciples.<br />
yea!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Spiritual Pathway by Elaine</title>
		<link>http://blog.evergreench.org/2008/09/09/the-spiritual-pathway/#comment-439</link>
		<dc:creator>Elaine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 05:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evergreench.org/?p=74#comment-439</guid>
		<description>I love the phrase "plugged into God." Great wording!
Having said that, I just finished a conversation with my mom about the church using tools and models. It was interesting, because her take was along the lines of: we have to keep praying and studying the Bible above all else. Which is true. But.
But your average person who's been out of church for 10+ years isn't going to be able to sit down, read Job, and then apply life lessons from it. Heck, I have trouble getting through Job and I'm a seminary student! Prayer is a little easier, in my opinion, but I suppose for some it's even harder than Bible study. The point being: we would be negligent in our duty to disciple others if we weren't providing tools. And I like the fact that at Evergreen, we are constantly evaluating and revising our tools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the phrase &#8220;plugged into God.&#8221; Great wording!<br />
Having said that, I just finished a conversation with my mom about the church using tools and models. It was interesting, because her take was along the lines of: we have to keep praying and studying the Bible above all else. Which is true. But.<br />
But your average person who&#8217;s been out of church for 10+ years isn&#8217;t going to be able to sit down, read Job, and then apply life lessons from it. Heck, I have trouble getting through Job and I&#8217;m a seminary student! Prayer is a little easier, in my opinion, but I suppose for some it&#8217;s even harder than Bible study. The point being: we would be negligent in our duty to disciple others if we weren&#8217;t providing tools. And I like the fact that at Evergreen, we are constantly evaluating and revising our tools.</p>
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